Baseball- Is a runner always safe when tagged out and the ball is dropped?

In a baseball game last night at our little league park, there was a play at home plate where the baserunner was clearly tagged on the stomach prior to reaching the plate on a sliding play. As he continued his slide, the ball fell out of the catcher's glove as his chin hit the glove. The umpire called the runner out even though the ball was loose from the catcher. His ruling was that the runner was out on the initial contact, not the second contact with the glove during the play, which knocked the ball loose. Should the runner have been safe or out?

Baseball- Is a runner always safe when tagged out and the ball is dropped?
Umpire judgement, and situational. In this case I would call safe .





A catch requires control and a voluntary release. A drop is not voluntary and suggests there was not actually control. This suggestion becomes stronger as the interval between the initial tag and the drop shortens.





In a similar play, BR hits to F6, who throws to F3, a little off so F3 stretches to his left but makes a clean catch in contact with the bag and then pulls his foot. Thinking maybe he pulled his foot too soon, he swipe tags the BR, dropping the ball in the process. In this case enough has happened between the catch and the attempted to tag to convince me of voluntary release. Batter/Runner out on the force play, not the tag.





In your case, if your timing is solid you won't have said anything when the ball hits the dirt. That's why umpires have to control the timing of calls! It doesn't sound to me like you had voluntary release. The catcher was probably still in the act of making damn sure he got the tag on the runner, when he should have brought his glove up and shown you the ball. Safe at the plate.
Reply:The out at first was not a force. Plus, the tagging of the base and the tagging of the batter-runner were two different acts, so the comparison is not a good one. Report It

Reply:Under that ruling - the answer is the runner is out.





Good Luck!!!
Reply:I sure hope that the first few people who answered never umpire, because they are wrong.





The rules require a tag to be made while the fielder is in "secure" and "firm" possession of the ball. Failure to hold onto the ball while tagging a runner is clear evidence that the fielder did not have secure possession. The fielder must release the ball voluntarily.





The runner would also be safe if the catcher were bobbling the ball when the catcher tagged him, even if the catcher did not ultimately drop the ball.





To accept the umpire's call and the wrong interpretation by some who have answered this question would be to say that just about all runners would be out whenever touched. And we all know that's not true.
Reply:i would have called him safe. but the ump is right by the ruling. that is why i teach kids that when you tag someone pull the glove away from the player so that a situation like this doesnt occur.
Reply:Some of it depends on the rules being used at this league and level. For my purposes, I am referring to MLB rules.





There is a requirement that the fielder hold the ball "securely and firmly" in order to complete the tag. Even though it probably seemed the ball was held when the initial tag was applied, how "securely and firmly" could it really be if it came loose on the second contact?





It would be helpful, of course, to see the play to see how much time elapsed from the first to second contact. The umpire is likely splitting hairs and could have sold either call. I would suspect most veteran umpires would have gone with "safe."
Reply:the runner would be out. Had the catcher dropped the ball when he made contact with his stomach then he would have been safe!
Reply:To the best of my knowledge the runner should have been out.


I never saw a dropped ball NOT count as a dropped ball before. :)
Reply:The runner should be called safe. The catcher has to maintain possession of the ball until the play is over. And who says he's out cause of initial contact. In that case EVERYONE would be safe on a dropped tag because the ball would only be dropped after initial contact. Besides have you ever see a play at home where the catcher gets mowed while making the tag. Why does the umpire wait until afterwards to make sure he maintained possession of the ball after the initial contact. I know we all have seen that and when the catcher is rocked to the ground and drops the ball upon impact with the ground the runner is called safe.
Reply:out initial contact
Reply:The runner is safe. The defensive player must have control of the ball and hold on to the ball after the tag is made. The umpire does have some lead-way here. If the umpire rules the tag was made and the ball was dropped after the play ended the runner would be out. But if the ball was dropped in the process of making the tag the runner would be safe. Your explanation sounds like the ball was dropped while in the process of making the tag.
Reply:You've received some very informative answers. The correct ones are those pertaining to applying the tag with firm and secure possession of the ball. However, my answer is not so much about the umpire being right or wrong, as it is about the issue being made of it. This is "little league", not the "major leagues", and you didn't state whether the person who made the call was a sanctioned umpire or just some person recruited from the stands. From the tone of your question, I suspect that the call went against your team. I would hope that despite the call not going your way, that team's coach set a good example for the kids by teaching them that the judgment of the umpire is part of the game (right or wrong) and that you accept his/her decision and move on.
Reply:Out! He was out on initial contact, the Ump got it right...Had the ball come out on initial contact the runner was safe!
Reply:the runner should be safe you must retain control of the ball until the play is over--second contact? was the first contact over? It sounds like there never was a second contact to me--Bryan has a point when you see a play at home and the catcher gets mauled by the runner hits the ground and drops the ball the runner is safe because the catcher did not maintain control of the ball.
Reply:yes he was safe. the catcher has to have complete control over the ball before and after the tag was applied.

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